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Second Meeting of the Medicine Men
...continued

"...we have advanced plenty, but we still have a lot to do. For example, we have identified completely fifty-eight plants including their use and dose. The total number of plants that we have to know is one hundred-sixty."

Alberto Manqueriapa

“Together with that great work the forest is being preserved and its use is being taught; since when we are taking care of the woods we are also thankful to our parents. With that idea we can also leave a clean forest full of medicinal plants for our children.”

Modesto Challco

Sacarias:

“I have been working here since 1986 and my idea was always to learn from the elders who have more experience and knowledge and who know many secrets of the forests. I also know about AMETRA and organizations that united us and shared experiences. Yet they were only organizations. For example, at the same time the ceremonies and the drinking of the chicha was done it was done without the same spirituality. Also, some of the advantages of learning slowly were lost; immediately they wanted to (practice) it.

“That’s why now that we have these people among us who live in contact with the forest and wish to rescue and see the ancient way of curing and doing ceremonies. We would like to count on the support of someone who could help us. That’s why I thank Donna and her interest in our work. It could be very good to obtain financial backing to have a curing center. We all desire to work in this center and we have come here voluntarily (although there are some here who did not want to come and who did not want to learn).”

Mariano:

“We could all join together as presenters of our work. Our western medicine can help and cure diverse illnesses, but there are many other illnesses with which we need the cooperation of traditional medicine.”

Alberto:

“It is important to mention that when we are planting the medicine gardens we have to learn that in transplanting there medicinal plants from the forests to the gardens the energy of the plants is not of the same quality. All of these people that used to have more knowledge about the plants should get acquainted with the learners from outside the community. This place should be valued by you and your community.”

The first guest speaker was Profesora Veronica:

“Being one of the people who is in contact with your children and with the Huacarian community, I would like to tell you that you should all continue living in the way your parents and grandparents taught you. Try to avoid changes. Teach your knowledge to your children, and improve and serve your community since your work is a motive of pride in your community and part of the work of rescuing your traditional medicine-- and also, your main representative is Alberto Manqueriapa, who promotes, investigates, and realizes the curative processes”.

Modesto Challco spoke after her:

He asked before the intervention of the participants: “Do you wish to speak in the presence of all the guests?”

Unanimous Response:

“We can share and speak about our work with all the guests, but we also would like to know who is really organizing this meeting”.

Alberto Manqueriapa responded:

“ProNaturaleza and the Health Center of Philcopata”.

Interchange of Experiences

Participants were presented and they spoke. These are personal commentaries of the attendees with respect of advancing the experience from the time of the first meeting until today.

Alberto Manqueriapa, in his position as host, expressed his welcome:

“I want to congratulate you all for attending and at the same time I want to tell you that everything we speak about will be useful for all of us to improve in our work. There is a lot to be learned and we should learn from past meetings like the ones we had with ARTETRA (Association of Traditional Medicine), who also tried to promote gardens with medicinal plants. These gardens were badly organized, and they treated them more as a business than a ‘living center.’

“There was not a good system in that organization. Now with ProNaturaleza, we have a new opportunity to have the gardens. We are new people and we could strengthen the ancestors’ knowledge—especially relating to the medicinal plants, rituals and songs that are part of the medicinal tradition. But it is important to know the opinions of the Doctors from the Health Center.”

With respect to his experience after the first meeting he said he has progressed a lot in visualizing a center of spiritual medicine, making an inventory of herbal medicines, relocating its garden with medicinal plants, and service and attention to the health of the community people. He has experimented with plants and their appropriate soil. He also said that he’s about to finish the description of the inventory of medicinal plants in a document.

Along that line he also expressed his thoughts that each community should work out the details in an independent and individual way for each Etnia community, showing these experiences to all the interested members of the community. At the end he thanked ProNat and TRC for their support.

Asencio Patiachi speaks. He is a representative of traditional medicine in Shinhiya, a participant in the workshop given by AMETRA 2001 and of the first meeting, and he is a promoter of the use of medicinal plants of his community in a communal assembly. He thanked the supporters for the first meeting of the Shamans, since that encounter had caused the interested people to give more value to the traditional medicine; he also hopes this meeting will further the interest. He is promoting knowledge of plants and their use and he said that this project and all of the others have to be clean and transparent.

He also said that the best teachings come from the old, so the promoters should approach the aged that have the will to teach. Each project or activity related to the knowledge of the natives must also be part of the knowledge of the representatives such as the Coharyima and Fenamad.

Mauano adds:

“We are here to support this project of the center and see that some day it will function and we all can develop.

Laureano speaks:

“I didn’t know anything about medicinal plants, but one day my mother cured me. She told me I should drink the chicha [Ayahuasca] when she died. That is why I am interested in this project. Of course, I have just begun to learn, but I am on my way. I value Alberto Manqueriapa knowledge, which is great. I value my mom’s knowledge, too. She only knew how to cure minor illnesses such as grippe, insect bites and bruises. So now I can only cure those minor ailments, but I would like to learn more.”

Mariano, in his native language, says:

“I work with traditional medicine. I have various, diverse experiences. For example, I know that the Huachipayris don’t have or don’t know great curative plants, but their plants have great psycho-magic powers; they know how to use the chicha (Ayahuasca) in a special manner, sometimes with papaya; that’s why each medicine man requires a personal style and share their learning and teaching with people of the same ideas and feelings, especially those who do not confuse others. That is why I want to suggest that each Etnia have first its own discussions and decisions, and later the reunion of the Etnias.”

Silverio says:

“I believe this reunion will help much more than the first because we are speaking in our own tongue or dialect, which is something that did not happen before. In this way we can speak about the name that is going to make us be a group. I believe that we shouldn’t call ourselves medicine men because many people would come to get cured of diverse illnesses. For now we should begin as promoters of natural medicine until we rescue better information.”

Louis says:

“ We should rescue first the knowledge of our grandfathers since they could cure many rare illnesses as well as bad energy that is called witchcraft.”

Alberto says:

“It is better not to mention words of other cultures, such as witchcraft, since these words get the ideas of other cultures mixed up; especially what relates to the medicine men. Our work must be in the form of meetings, during which we get the knowledge the ancient people have, since they are the sources of knowledge. Then, we should preserve the knowledge by transmitting it to our children, because they will be the holders or carriers.

“For now we have advanced plenty, but we still have a lot to do. For example, we have identified completely fifty-eight plants including their use and dose. The total number of plants that we have to know is one hundred-sixty. The fifty-eight that we have identified we have had a lot of difficulties with, especially because of the mountain/forest rabbits that come to our gardens at night and eat everything we collect during the day. We also have difficulty in growing some of the plants because they do not grow in a clean crop, alone. Because of that we have to plant yucca to help populate the soil.

“I believe that in that way we could have gardens that would be productive and at the same time interesting for the tourists, probably. We also wish to have a place or tourists to stay. These will not merely be a place to stay, but would have a house or room for meditation. The location of this new center has to be in agreement with our own energy, since the center called Huanamey that was in Abel Muniz’ property had a different energy from ours. I was able to prove that a year ago when I had a drinking of the chicha (Ayahuasca) with Donna and Richard in Abel Muniz’ place; we didn’t obtain the expected results.

“Therefore, after consulting with different people and ProNat, the response was advising us to look for a new meditation center and living quarters (or a place to stay). This new place should give us the energy to work with nature. There, we should have a special center where the visitors could rest, get cured, and learn. We’ll be able to talk about natural medicine and share everything. Afterwards we could rest in the meditation room and we could also visit the forest, which will be full of medicinal plants, as part of a learning experience. In this way our development will occur with our dedicated effort.”

Modesto speaks:

“The soil where the first experimental center was built wasn’t good because the soil was red and unsuitable for some of the plants to grow. For that reason we decided to look for another alternative. We have a good possibility with this other land; not too close to the Huacarian community, but accessible. We have already seen the land and have proof that all the plants could grow there, and it could be demonstrated to anybody. We have advanced plenty, and together with the community we have zoned the land to preserve a place for the mystical part, and other zones for hunting.

“After consulting with the community, we have agreed and accepted that Alberto does some work on those zones and at the same time applying the traditional medicine so that he would have some alternative means of help or remuneration. It’s not a salary, but a voluntary, (a sort of donation) that he could receive from the patients.

“ProNaturaleza reports Albert’s ideas, he who is collecting and identifying the plants. He’s also acquiring knowledge of the usefulness of each plant, which helps us to project ourselves into the future. Some day, we could put this knowledge at the reach of the rest of the medical world.

“Together with that great work the forest is being preserved and its use is being taught; since when we are taking care of the woods we are also thankful to our parents. With that idea we can also leave a clean forest full of medicinal plants for our children.”

Mario says:

“The importance of a garden is great, since it will allow others to keep their eyes open, to keep going forward.”

Mateo says:

“Everything that we are saying is very interesting, but we also have to understand that we will grow and we will have to cure others. In the forest we will do it as a sharing of knowledge without being paid; but when we have to go out into the cities it will not be easy for us to compete with the doctors with all their instruments and machines and the false medicine men who charge money for their false cures.

“We also need to do our concentration in order to cure. We need to learn our work well, and we’ll need to know where and how much to charge money. Alberto is going to work with Dr. Neptaly who does cures, but doesn’t charge. However, he has different needs when he is in the city. We have to agree on a rate (amount we’ll charge). There is a place for doctors and their work. They come into the forest and it is good for us to get their opinions, since they not only come to vaccinate us, they could also receive the experience of the natives.

“I know that many of us natives think that the health programs of the government are not well managed, (such as the birth program) that are affecting our people in a changing way. Many women are sick after those programs. We have to do something to stop these programs or get them to be managed better.

“With respect to the center of traditional medicine, I think we need to have one in Shipetiari, so that the sick people do not have to come so far to Huacaria because of the long distance and the expense. The center in Huacaria is good, but for us to have one closer to our communities will be beneficial to the natives of Diamante and the Island of the Valley (Isla del Valle).”

Reynaldo says:

“A natural medicine center has to be in a perfect location. To get that, all of us that are going to work there have to do meditations so that we can find the adequate space. It would be important that one of us is elected promoter of the center and responsible for the local. This would be a promoter that would receive the help of an office or an organization such as the one represented by our sister Donna. That promoter could also represent us at the FENEMA (Federacion Nativa de Madre de Dios), The department where its lands are located, or where some of the communities belong.”

Modesto says:

“In this first part we understood that ProNat acted as an organizer, not as an office that would set rates for cures. Mateo would be in charge of coordinating that work in Shipetiari, something that is not totally decided or approved by ProNat. At ProNat we don’t think that we need a center pf natural medicine in each community, but we believe that one person should coordinate all the work. So far, Alberto is the only one and everybody is in agreement about his continuing. He should also teach those who want to do a similar job.”

Dr. Neptaly, a guest, says:

“I’m coming as a representative of the western doctors who humbly and respectfully are interested in the real applications of native medicine. We don’t want to criticize it; moreover, we want to permit the acceptance of traditional medicine by patients, since curing and making al the patients happy is what we are all about. It is very important that both traditional and western medicine can benefit the patients. When we can’t cure someone, maybe the natives can, and when the natives can’t cure someone, maybe we can.

“We all know that sometimes traditional medicine can’t act too fast and that is why the patient should be treated at an emergency health center; but for other cases many people do go to Philcopata where they are healed with traditional medicine. A good example of a person that treated patients very well was Ron Alejandro Jahuanchi. Now another good one is Alberto. If each medicinal treatment could cure all the illnesses we wouldn’t have so many sick people. It is clear that we have to continue getting people interested in medicine and in helping others and in sharing knowledge that is even better.

“I value a lot this act of curing since it is a special power. We have to face things we don’t see and there are, because of that, diverse forms of cure such as song, prayer, meditation and so on. We have to be open in accepting natural medicine as a way to help people and we also have to thank the medicine men for the difficult job they do in saving lives in a field where western doctors can’t save anybody.”

Modesto says:

“We can talk now about the importance of the Ayahuasca and the way to take it. I am interested in sharing that when one takes the chicha (Ayahuasca) one has to be well prepared since during that time one cannot collide with other energies. This is not a game, since one can see when one is failing during the ceremony. We all need to go up to the next level.

“Now I want to talk about the future meetings. We all have families. When we come to a meeting like this we all have to stop working for three days at least. It would be good to get some economic remuneration. And about the plants and medicines we could get support from an organization so that we could make ointments ourselves and we could commercialize directly. My last point is that we should at what level each one of us is, so that each one respects his specialty and his knowledge.”

Asencio says:

“I find myself in the second level. I can cure children in an easy way since I have begun curing my children.”

Zacarias says:

“I can cure with house plants and some smoked plants to give baths, especially when someone is afraid. We can also use Guacamayo feathers, but to cure I use faith. The fear (fear could be spasm or indigestion) can be cured in different ways according to the patient.”

Mario says:

“I can help people who have diarrhea or vomiting. I use the bones of the animal the person has eaten since we sometimes do not ask permission to the animals that we are going to eat.”

Louis says:

“I use tobacco for my cures, blowing it, but only minors when they have nausea and/or headaches.”

Edgar says:

“I smoke plants and with that I can cure children when they have fear. This fear happens often when their fathers have hunted tigrillo (a small tiger) and the songs get the fear. For that, the hair of the father has to be burnt, and that burnt hair passed all over the body of the children.”

Mario says:

“I us incense from the Monte bush and a stick of silk (a plant called palo de seda). With that I can cure.”

Alberto tells the others:

“We have to know how the plants are used and when specifically, since many times we have to try different plants. Each experience gives us a specific use for a plant and sometimes we can fail.”

Edgar says:

“I use the Yawar Piri Piri that is very good for the eyesight and is a root known by everybody.”Silverio says:

“I’m happy to be here and I’m learning a lot I have been curing my children and little by little I have been learning how to cure other adult people.”

Alberto says:

“I have also learned little by little, by using the medicinal plants, like the matico and the Yawar Piri Piri. At first my mother taught me and she supports me in learning knowledge. In AMETRA I also learned how to cure and use plants. In the year 1987 I also learned to drink the chicha since my mom told me that my father was also a psycho-magic medicine man. At the beginning I had to drink it fourteen times to see the road of curing. The first grade that I got during those years allowed me to blow tobacco on the children to cure them of minor illnesses.

“Later, in a meeting with natives from Brazil, Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela and Peru I succeeded in reaching the second level because I was able to cure more advanced illnesses. However, I remember very well that it was not too easy; because even if the medicine man has all the good intentions, nothing works as it is supposed to happen when the patient does not follows all the indications. One of my patients, a child, didn’t follow my instruction. I had him on a meatless diet, but his mother fed him meat on the third day of treatment. When he died, his mother blamed me. She never admitted being at fault.

“That is why I recommend that all of you are very strict with the diets. You have to stress the importance of a strong will together with the patient. I was able to cure a nephew that got the cutipado because he passed by a cemetery. I advised him not to eat some kinds of fish, so that he wouldn’t get worse. In this way, one can get experience knowing all the illnesses, taking care of curing children.

“I cured paralytics and epileptics, because I reached the third level and the plant that cures epilepsy. I also learned about that bat blood that can be drunk. Another treatment is with the blood of the black swallows. Again, I want to affirm that these are all personal experiences and it is important to be very careful when you drink of plants and other elements because each plant has a particular hour of time that it has to be taken. For example, there are some kinds of plant that you can only pull out in a full moon.

“Nowadays I only work with adults and I am ready to advance to the third level. This means that to cure somebody you can’t guess, you have to talk and have a long conversation with the patient. One has to search for a natural cause or a reason for the illness. It is necessary to know the forest and its inhabitants well before you can cure. For example, nobody in the city wanted to believe that a person could get ill after cutting a plant of palmetto, but it’s something that happens sometimes and the ways to cure this exist.

“I believe that my cures are not only psycho-magical, but it is necessary to drink the chicha to know if my work is going in a correct way. The diet is another very special point, because one has to know when to diet and when to stop eating fish and other things temporarily. It is important for the diet of the medicine man to be the same as the patient’s. The energy is another point that gives more energy to the medicine man. For example, the Huachipayris tell you, ‘I give you the energy.’ You need to keep it going to get well.

“I also want to remind you that even though we agrees to having a garden in each community, all of us have not complied; many don’t have one. You should have a garden because in that way you may have a reserve of medicinal plants and you would have a place to teach others who want to learn.”

Mateo says:

“It’s a good idea to have a garden but I want to remind you about not cleaning the garden in such a way that you destroy other plants that could be good, too. We have to try not to hurt the forest.”

Zacharias says:

“There are also members of religious groups that forbid tobacco blowing and other cures that we do in traditional medicine, although we should notice that when their children get sick they look for the medicine men.”

Persi says:

“I have noticed that some gardens are destroyed by people of the community of the ones that have a garden, since they take the medicinal plants out without permission of the promoter. Another problem that the promoters have is that in taking care of their garden they use too much time so they do not have another source of income. There is an idea of giving S/150 ($40) per week to the people that take care of gardens. I hope that this will come to be, so that we can give you some money too when you come to these meetings, and you can take something to your families. I want to ask you now, by the way, do you want to have an ingeniero of ProNaturaleza as a coordinator?”

Mateo says:

“It is important to have a native coordinator in charge of visiting all the communities. This person needs to have a knowledge of plants. We have selected Alberto and we could continue to have the support of ProNat and their ingenieros since ProNat has boats and motors in the whole zone.”

Persi says:

“ProNat is trying to get funds for a promoter to travel always with the ingenieros so that he can acquire more experience and learn other aspects of the coordination of a project.”

Personal Interviews >>

Updated: July 19, 2004

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